Summary

Fellowship in Cambodia. Peter has been involved with missions work for many years across multiple countries. Having seen mixed results after missions groups and churches had completed their work, Peter felt challenged to rethink how we approach missions work and how the church can provide true help.

Links:
We Are Not The Hero
When Helping Hurts
Toxic Charity: How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help And How to Reverse It
Cambodia Outreach


Transcript

Peter: Cambodia is just wide open. I mean that's the exciting thing about being in Cambodia. You can't just go somewhere, pitch up at a, put a microphone up and preach the gospel and you're okay. You're allowed

James: From CityLife church. I'm James Wright. This is contrast theory. Okay. Well my guest today is Peter Chandra. He is a volunteer consultant at new life fellowship in Cambodia. For, for those who may not know you, do you want to tell a bit about yourself?

Peter: Yeah, so a, I originally come from Singapore. Then I studied in the UK, got married there, I lived there for 25 years, then came to Australia in 2000 and that's where I got involved with city life. And in 2004 I got to know new life fellowship, which is one of the, the key to the life will impact partners there. And I've been sending and having teams going to Cambodia for, for 14 years now. But two and a half years ago my wife and I decided to move to Cambodia to really be on the ground. You know, we've been doing short term teams but really new life is such an exciting church and we were called a new season to be involved with them. What was that move like? I guess, you know, there are a lot of changes but even at a young age I've always been called to help the poor. So since since I was a teenager, I guess the question that has always been on my mind is as a Christian, how do I help the poor? So I've always in one sense been involved with missions. So, so my first mission trip was to Haiti in, in university. Since then I've been to Uganda, Mozambique, India, Malaysia various sort of teams as well. So really coming to Cambodia was just a natural progression of helping encourage planning but also in a developing country.

James: How did, how did those early missions trips kind of shape your view of a missions trips? Cause they're all around the world,

Peter: I guess a quite substantial area, which is why I guess we go to mission, we send teams in short term teams. You know, just to get an exposure. But I, but I distinctly remember my first mission team was like I said, my first year at university and this was in England, but we were involved with cheer, fun until fun, was asking for a team to come to Haiti. So and it was very interesting because I'm not good with my hands. So, you know, all of the mission teams at that time was about construction work, building dormitories and so on. So the first time we saw it being advertised was a, a team that was not doing construction. So we all signed up. So all of us in the team, you know we're not keen about construction. We had an orientation in England and we arrived in Haiti and the missionary met us on the ground and said, ah, my construction team.

Peter: So for two months we were building a dormitory, but he was a very good coach. Yeah. and I guess the first lesson I learned about missions is that, you know, don't think you'd be doing what you think you're doing or you, you've been asked to do because things change so fast. So I said lesson was to be flexible and adaptable. The second thing that really impacted me was during those three buttons. You know, I stayed with a missionary, American family, I in American food pizza about a jam, you know I was involved in American mission compound and I asked the question, you know, how, how are we being effective with regards to the, the local people on the ground. Now having said that, it's no criticism because again you know, they were involved with the mission hospital but it was a very much an American lifestyle in such a poor environment. So that really started more questions than answers. And it was a, it was, I think it was very critical in me asking what is true help.

James: Have you found that kind of attitude is kind of across Christian churches around the world or, or do you, did you feel it was more just that specific community?

Peter: I think it I think people come over, but we're not aware that they're doing it. You know, I don't think he was any sinister intent and so on. It's just that, you know, by definition we are who we are and so we become to another country, you know, we are who we guide. So, you know, whatever their culture is, we bring it along. But I guess what is important though is that if you're in a, in a, in a cross cultural setting we've got to ask the questions, you know, what is relevant, what is not relevant? You know, what is cultural, what is biblical? I mean those are all very hard questions. There's no right and wrong. Particularly when you think about biblical lifestyle versus Western lifestyle versus an Eastern lifestyle. And unless we are able to differentiate it and be clear about it, people on the ground get confused, you know, so it'd be she's why we have such a prevalent view that, you know, Christianity's is the Western. Because I guess what we've done unconsciously is we've, we've projected Christian culture has Western culture.

James: What do you think are some of the fundamentals that Christians may get wrong about missions work?

Peter: What we fail to recognize is that even in developing countries, progress has taken place at an incredible pace. And what was the classical view of missionary work? A historic S change and needs to change? So what was valued, you know, a hundred years ago, 40 years ago whereby, you know, early missionaries are brought in in education, but you know, legal systems and so on, which was a really good and important things have developed further. You know, now we're in a global age, we're in the internet age and so on. And so even what is Eastern culture, because even intrepreneur campaign, you know, all of them are looking at Western clothes cause in music and songs as well. So, so we need to recognize that things are changing tremendously. So I guess I liked the first lesson we have to be flexible and really ask God and his spirit to guide us and leaders in an inappropriate way.

James: Can you think of any specific activities or programs that may be more harmful than, than do good?

Peter: Yeah, I, you know, I I think one of the tendencies is and, and again, you know, it comes out a good heart. You know, from the West, we do have more resources. We do have more finances. And in the East, when we look at these places prefer, you know, especially in, in poor places there is in the finance. So, so one of the instinctive things that we want to do first is just give money. However, you know, the question is not whether we give or not give money. The question is how do we give it wisely? So and in some ways the tendency as well as there were in and out. So we usually just give money, say, you know, bless you. And then off we go. But if we don't do it in the proper way, we don't think about ownership, we don't think about sustainability, we don't think about responsibility, accountability.

Peter: Then that's where the danger is. So the question is, you know, how, how do we go about giving them money? And just as an example of how it can be detrimental is that, you know, we always talk about, Oh, let's go and you know, in, in Cambodia, let's go and visit the slum kids. Okay. So we see them, you know, the [inaudible] India you know, collecting recyclables and Sonia in order to earn a living. So our heart goes to them and, you know, we, we give them money and, you know, of course they very grateful and we feel very great. You know, we feel very blessed because we've been able to, to help them. However, what is happen in most cases is that they now become dependent on short term teams coming over with hiring and giving them. And when we try to introduce programs that says, look, let me help you to develop a skill so that you don't have to depend on handouts. You know, but you have good account for some classes. You got to do some learning. And he a responsible we have cute when he come back and he says, Oh, why should we do that? All right, we'll just go, you know, another NGO will come and give us money. So, so you didn't say, well, okay, so whose fault is it? Yeah.

James: Ah, it reminds me of a, I took a trip to Cambodia and we went to the, Oh, what was it? The Tuol Sleng prison. And, but there, there were some people on the outside who would, I can't remember, deformed in some sort of way. And when we were there, when we were walking past them, they were very very, you know, needy and begging for money. And we were told by the people that were taking us to just ignore them, keep walking. And when I turned around after we'd, they stood up, they were just kind of chatting with their friends. They were laughing

Peter: Unfortunately though, you know, there is the minority. So, so if you went through the experience, the natural repercussion is, you know, yeah, I shouldn't be giving any money, but again, there's a lot of other people there are really [inaudible]. So that's why my suggestion is, you know, really do the homework to find out which organizations I involved in. The long run is on the ground there. Then the long run, they have thought through those questions of ownership, accountability, sustainability. So, so I guess my, my, my my comment is give money, but give it wisely, do the homework, do the research. Find out which organizations have got track record and has got ways. And to me, a very important with for me now is sustainability. So let me give you an example.

Peter: You know, water is very precious. So, you know, the whole area of digging Wells, providing fresh water, clean water is crucial because clean water really, you know, wipes out wanted the, the, the, the, the problems. Medical problems. Okay. So, so clean freshwater is important. A few months ago we went and visited the village. There was a well that that the church had dug but it wasn't working right. So we talked to the pastor and say, look, why, why is it not working? Oh, you know one of the parts that broken down, all right, so we say, why don't you get it fixed? He said, yeah, I got it fixed. And then the kids were playing and then it broke again. So we then say, why don't you put a fence around so that the kids don't play with it? So that doesn't get very done.

Peter: Oh, it's just too hot, you know? So I just didn't bother. So we asked the question, well, so what happened to those people that needed the water or they've got to buy the water somewhere else? Okay. So, so what struck me was this, we gave him the, well, we gave him the money, we dig the well, he had nothing invested in that well. So when he broke down, he will look to the end and said, fix it. Alright, and whose fault is it? Is our fault. Yeah. So, so now we're saying if we're going to help you with the, well, you got to put in your part of the, the player as well. All right. So the whole issue about joint responsibility working together in partnership so that they build, they feel they've put in sweat and tears into it. They are also invested in it, in the whole area of, of ownership.

Peter: That's that one. Now we're looking at how do we then provide a, a reason incentive for him to make sure it's working well and providing water and so on. So now we're embarking on project that says, not only will we helped you with the well and so on, but we wanna teach you how to sell the water because people do buy water and people will pay for water, right? So we will teach you how to sell the water. So now you have an income stream, right? They will provide you with income as well. So that there's a sustainability plan and guess what, if it breaks down, you're not having any income so you will fix it. So yeah. So I was thinking, I hope he has progressed and we're now looking at all of our projects to have a sustainability income generation component.

James: I've heard you speak before about empowering local people. How do you feel that model kind of coincides with Western churches wanting to help?

Peter: The best we can help, I believe now from the Western viewpoint is really building capacity, training the trainers and not doing it ourselves. So there is a, a quite an acceptable, a methodology that's already being used in Africa, in Asians on call community health development or in other places is call church and community mobilization and tier [inaudible] emoji. So we'll vision to your compassion all working towards this methodology, which fundamentally means don't assume you know the answers when you go to a village. Work with the village chief, work with the village community. I if there isn't one a facilitate the forming of a village committee but get the pastor involved as well. So the past is seen as part and parcel of wanting to help the village and let the village committee tell us what they need as opposed to us telling them what they need.

Peter: Right. And then from there they, they see ownership and then work away. Whereby in partnership we provide some funds, they provide the manpower or whatever. So that is a joint program. But let the village decide on what's important. Let me give you one specific example that I heard in the past. There's a an NGO comes to this village, you know, notices the issue of sanitation and so on. And they say, look, you know, we'll help you build toilets and so on, which is really important, but the really community says, no, actually we want to road see what, you know, I kind of, okay, but the principle is we let the religion decide. So they help the village build a road. When they build the road, they discover that this road is so simple. The track was instrumental in this village being able to do trade with the other villages.

Peter: And as a result of that, they were able to sell their vegetables, their goods. And so they had income with that income. They then built the toilets in the schools since also the villages know they need toilets inside, but they knew what was the critical critical path. Right. So we have to learn how to trust the village community, come up with what they need. Is there anything specific that your church, new life fellowship is doing? Or any programs that they're starting that you are particularly proud of? Well, I think I'm I'm just proud of what new life fellowship is doing in terms of church planting. So, so all of our community development is all in the context of church planting because in the end the gospel, the church is Jesus. Answer in is our answer to the world. So whatever we do, even in community development is in the context of church planting.

Peter: I've seen it as two, two sides of a coin. So new life is just incredible in commitment and excitement in, in planting churches. So they've got a goal of 500 churches by end of next year. They're already coming to 300. What they've also made is a decision that all of the village pastors have to be bi-vocational. Cause you really, you know, you can pay $50 every month for 500 people and you know, that's a big bill. So the challenges as well is the helping the pastor or the congregation to have some small businesses as well so that they can have an income. So, so in your life has got the foundation and the livelihoods is trying to help the pastors, you know, whether it's selling water where there's chickens and so on, to be able to do more and more of that and the training associated with it.

Peter: The other key thing that I think is very exciting about new life is they have what we call complimentary education out in the villages where we call new transform lives. Whereby each location has got 40 children. We provide a nutritious meal for them and three hours of complementary classes, whether it's [inaudible] it English or you know, whatever is needed. But has really been powerful because education really is a real key for the future of any, any country. So that is being rolled out. In one sense, they are the, the more funds we have we are able to do more locations. But again, with the sustainability a principle, we have said that we will fund only for three years and in the fourth year they have to be sustainable. So we're giving them three years to start charging fees, even if it's 10 cents, 50 cents.

Peter: So they're in the fourth year, their quality will be high enough that they will be able to get enough revenue to sustain them. So we have said to the pastors, we will pull the plug in in year four in terms of finances because again, we want you to be sustainable. But we know it works. There's a another church where the pastor has got that mindset and within two years we've had enough money to pay for the teachers to pay for the meals and so on. And and the, the family is benefiting the, the, the, the families value the education cause they're paying for it as well. So I, I think it is on the right track.

James: I know sometimes when, when people go into other countries and try to do some sort of missions where they can come into some, some cultural challenges where they are unaware of maybe a, a certain history that may be, you know, at that may affect something that they want to do or, or maybe, yeah, maybe there's an underlying cultural difference in terms of something looked down upon. Have you found in your current journey in Cambodia anything like that? So maybe it's scars from the Khmer Rouge era or just the constant development of trying to catch up with Western civilization?

Peter: Yeah, I think, you know, particularly with Cambodia, we do recognize that the Khmer Rouge and what has happened in, so one quarter of the population being killed and the critical population in terms of the academics, the business people has really meant that the country has got a long way more to go in terms of chasing up with the rest of Southeast Asia. But also, you know, the new generation, I don't know, but the common route actually it's quite interesting, you know, but they are now, you know, very hopeful for the future. So yes, for us coming in, we do need to appreciate the background, which is where and why. There's still a lot more for them to cover, but the, the situation is awful. You know, there are, you know, Cambodia is growing 6.5% GDP projected for the next three years. There's three times faster than Australia. So there's, you know, there's lots of progress happening. But we need to, to work in partnership with them. And you know, I always use the word partnership, which is a win win for both sides.

James: How have you found the Christian persecution in Southeast Asia? Is as, is it a substantial in any of the countries that you've been in or has it been okay,

Peter: One of the and, and most people don't appreciate that in Cambodia. You can go anywhere in Cambodia and preach the gospel and that's amazing. You can do that in Vietnam because the community's country you can do in Laos, Thailand, you know, [inaudible] is a really strong call in sort of Buddhism. A MyEmma because of the heritage is very difficult to, to get there. So out of Southeast Asia, Cambodia is just wide open. I mean, that's the exciting thing about being in Cambodia. You can't just go somewhere pizza, but put a microphone up and preach the gospel and you're okay, you are allowed. Right? so we really have a window of opportunity in Cambodia. You can go and preach anywhere as long as you don't talk politics, you know, we have to be sensitive to that, but God has opened that door. But we don't know how long that had been. There will be open. So my view is there, let's this really go as much as we can in God's favor. Whilst the opportunities open.

James: What sort of resources would you recommend to people who are interested in these sorts of areas?

Peter: Well, I, I myself, I've, you know, I'm reading a book called we are not the hero, but Jean Johnston and she herself had spent 16 years in Cambodia and now back in the States, really grappling with the issue of how do we help and have a true partnership. So I would say that's an incredible book to look at where there is we are not the heroes. The other two books is called when helping hurts that does a, a more theological the first half is a theological view about poverty. And also how then we can differentiate between relief, development and partnership. And then the third one called toxic charity is war stories of how you know, out of a right attitude though we've caused a lot of damage and, and how do we reverse that? So those are the three books that has really impacted me and I would recommend people to have a look.

James: Well, Peter, it's been amazing having you here. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me. Is there any, is there any website that you would like to plug right now?

Peter: Yup. the new life fellowship, a website is called Cambodia outreach.org and that will give you all the various activities that Newlife does, but also the, the, the various projects and initiatives that we're involved with. So that's the English version of the website. That sounds great. All right, well, thank you so much and I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here. Yep. Thank you very much.

James: For more information and resources, check out the show notes for today's episode. [inaudible].