Summary

Dr. U-Wen Low is a lecturer at Alphacrucis College teaching in the Undergraduate and Masters programs. We talk with U-Wen about a range of topics from politics to theology that are effecting Christianity today.

Links:
U-Wen Low's Profile

Transcript

U-Wen: One thing that frustrates me a lot is I see people who, let's say Business Leaders. They're really really sharp in hat they do, when it comes to their work, but then it comes to their faith and they turn their brains off and they become really gullible and that's how people fall into cults you know?

James: My guest today is U-Wen Low. He is currently a lecturer and program director at Alphacrucis College. He has a degree in Psychology, a degree in theological studies, a PhD in biblical studies. What led you into interest into theological studies?

U-Wen: For me, it's part of the journey, you know. I, uh, going up as a younger Christian, a fresh Christian, you know, come along the church. I was always the kind of person who'd like to research and delve a little bit deeper into things and I was kind of feeling like, you know Church wasn't really meeting a lot of the needs that I had, you know, not that church wasn't doing well. It’s just that, my questions went much deeper and broader often than what I could find on a Saturday or Sunday night sermon, young adults, etcetera etcetera. So I thought okay. Well rather than complain about this, why don't I actually be a bit proactive and kind of you know, ask some questions and try and find out more for myself and God kind of led me lead me into Bible College and yeah while I was doing my arts degree in Melbourne and that's kind of where it ended up.

James: Did you ever end up using your psychology degree or did that kind of just end up on the wall?

U-Wen: It's just on the wall. I kind of I use I use some of the concepts occasionally when I'm talking with students and you know, nothing's wasted but it hasn't been exercised overly much. Let's just put it that way.

James: I know a lot of people might find this confronting about you. Did your PhD work in the Book of Revelation, why did you pick the Book of Revelation?

U-Wen: Mostly frustration to be honest. The Book of Revelation growing up, you know, I'll give a bit of History here because you know, a lot of people who grew up in the 70s and 80s and particularly in Australia and in the Pentecostal charismatic movements and even outside of that knew that there was this huge amount of fervor about you know, what happens when the apocalypse comes for whatever reason in those decades I think to do a great deal to do with the amount of social change that was happening and so a lot of interesting theories and ideas about Revelation was sort of, if formulated, then regurgitated and repackaged and you know, were really quite popular around that time. So, you know growing up in sort of the late 90s early 2000s, what I found was a lot of people were I guess just repeating verbatim what they'd heard in the 70s and 80s re-preaching that and it felt a little bit, It didn't feel quite right. You know, I kind of thought maybe I should read Revelation for myself. Read it. Realized I had no idea what was going on. One day, you know, I was in a revelation class in Bible College and I heard about a theory of interpreting it and I thought you know what, that's it. And I said to my lecturer has anyone else really talked or thought about this and delved into it and the answer is no so I thought you know what, I'll do that. And the whole idea of that was to read or understand Revelation as a performance. So as a theatrical drama, shall we say, you know in the Greek and Roman type and you know, so I did a lot of work in that and I think it's one helpful way of viewing the text which means that we don't have to take it literally. We can understand it a bit more artistically and it means that we can take some of the pressure off, you know, trying to predict things or go with prophecies or things like that. It's still prophecy, but prophecy can mean something a little bit different.

James: I'll have you back in getting to Revelation, you know, maybe another day but quick question I wanted to ask what do you think of the main problems that regular Christians have with trying to read Revelation. What do you think are they kind of miscommunications that might happen or misinterpretations?

U-Wen: Sure. It's interesting because we are all products of I think the environments and the cultures that we grow up in. I think it's pretty safe to say that. Most people don't realize that they're conditioned to read Revelation a particular way. Same as the Bible I guess. You know, we all read it looking for, especially if you've grown up in a like, you know, I suppose I have a very Pentecostal charismatic environment. You read the Bible looking for joy and hope and you know, nice things that make you feel good and show you how good God is but when we do that, those filters can remove some of the other things and so I think that's part of the first thing is realizing that you have your prejudices and preconceived ideas about how you approach any text. Really. I mean for some Christians today, I would say the words Harry Potter novels and they go, “Oh gosh, I can't read that” and I say well, why is that, you know, you've got your preconceived ideas around that and you would bring… if I forced you to read Harry Potter, you would bring your preconceived ideas into it and you probably hate it, you know, same thing with the Bible. I'm not saying that anyone comes in hating the Bible, but we tend to read it quite literalistically. We tend to look for hidden codes and messages and try and use it to predict the end of the world. People have been trying to use Revelation to predict the end of the world since it was written and no one's gotten it right yet. So, you know, maybe don't do that.

James: Well, it's funny. I just saw something today about you know, some I'm sure it was some Nut Job website, but someone posted something about the mark of the beast coming up and is there anything maybe on that? You know, because I know we've had I mean, we have a terrible history of trying to predict the future and the end times has been predicted so many times. I think it's it's honestly useless. So what do you think about the you know, the number of the Beast and the mark of the beast? What do you think about that imagery and how people interpret that?

U-Wen: Oh great question. I think there's there's kind of two questions in that and one is how people have interpreted it another one is how maybe we should interpret it. So the way people have historically interpreted it is like I said, you know a lot of people tend to do it quite literalistically and so they're looking for a literal mark or literal dragon and you know, that that's that's one tradition and another one is to interpret it somewhat allegorically or metaphorically and so they're saying like you know, I think credit cards was a big one when when credit cards kind of first came in people like, “this is the mark of the beast” you know. RFID chips, I think would be the current ones and there's always something. I think what rather than kind of rubbish either one, what I think is important to do is kind of look behind that and look behind the the imagery of the text and ask why is this here and with Revelation, you know, it is a warning. It’s kind of saying hey, you know beware the powers of Empire that suck you in into participating in things that go against God's Empire. And so the mark of the beast is one representation of that. It represents a you've sold out and you are no longer a participant in God's Empire because you've let yourself be branded by the other Empire. And so that's the question I think everyone needs to ask themselves and it will be different for everyone. You know someone in Ethiopia will probably interpret that completely differently to how we interpret it. For me, it's you know getting too sucked up into consumerism and and this idea of global capitalism and and how wonderful it can be like, you know, every system has its flaws. But I think when we buy too much into that, into the idea of prosperity then for me that's kind of one mark that we kind of like need to look out for. You know, the beauty of the prophecy of the idea of Prophecy is that prophecy especially biblical prophecy is always relevant, right? And so in the 60s and 70s it meant something different to what it means today, you know in probably probably now to be honest, it could mean a question about environmentalism and the mark of the beast could be for some people it could be coal mines, you know or coal-fired power stations. For other people, it could be windmills or wind farms so, you know, whatever it is that you interpret, everyone is different so they have their own interpretations and we have to acknowledge that and recognize that but then we place it, you know within our wider cultural context and kind of say, okay. Well that's that's fine. You know, that's that's your way of looking at it. But really I think you know culturally we can have to go with this. So hopefully that kind of explains it a little.

James: So with all these kind of you know, crazy sometimes crackpot theories. Why do you think people are so, or what do you think Christians are so inclined to believe anything a pastor says to them?

U-Wen: It’s a good question to be fair. I think it's not all Christians. Obviously, you know, we have to be careful not to generalize all the time. But yes, you know, there is something about listening to people in Authority. You've got to remember that for a long long period of Western history, The Church was the only place that provided education and you know without the church we wouldn't have systems of Education like we do today like University isn't things right. So there's almost this kind of, over the last you know two thousand years, an inbuilt acceptance of the church's Authority when it comes to teaching because they were the only ones who did teach for many many years right in any sort of Academic bookish way. That's one reason that I think it's easy to overlook or maybe dismissed. But I think there's a bit more to it than we think. Another one is that you know, a lot of the times as Christians were faced with very very difficult questions. Any religious person is and should be. A lot of us like to take the easy way out which is you know, believing what the pastor's told us instead of necessarily critically thinking things through for ourselves. And you know critical thinking doesn't just mean being critical of the pastor's sermon because we're all very good at that. What I'm talking about is really examining what were being taught the doctrines, the dogmas, all of these things that we're being told in a weekly basis holding them up to well reality and the contexts that we live in and saying well can I actually apply the principles or the ideas behind this into everyday reality or are there problems with it? And again, you know, I think part of it has to do with comfort as well, you know, we’re comfortable being in a place where we're not being challenged because that means we have to think which is difficult and challenging and annoying. So, you know, we try to avoid a lot of people like to set their lives up to avoid that and you know fair enough. So I think that's a big part of it. I'm not saying Christians are lazy necessarily I'm saying that there's a few different factors that that causes not to critically think: history, you know, the fact that it's easier and the fact that we're a lot of us are told not to question authority and you know, there's a good reason behind that, you know, having been a pastor sometimes, you know, you just want people to listen to you, but you know, it kind of cuts both ways. So, it’s a very very challenging job being a pastor putting out good sermons and I really don't envy people have to do it weekly.

James: Do you think people in the more charismatic circles don't take the Reformation as seriously as maybe some others do and maybe they should? Because you know the history of Martin Luther speaking out against the Catholic Church being the you know, absolute entity at the time led to the entire Evangelical kind of revolution and the Protestant kind of charge that led after that. Do you think we're not taking that seriously enough because that was a perfect example of questioning the teaching and the actually looking into it for yourself. And you know, he Nails the 95 thesis to the wall. Yeah. Well the door.

U-Wen: Yeah. It's an interesting point and that's another issue. I suppose is that most well again, you know depends on really depends on your church and when you go to but church history isn't taught in many pulpits because it's challenging. It's difficult. It can be really dry and really boring if the wrong person is teaching it. And so we lose a lot of those lessons but you know, I mean, even Martin Luther aside, there's movements counter-movements and counter-counter-movements all the time, you know. At the moment Pentecostalism in Australia is starting to split. You know, we seem to be heading in two different directions and there's obviously, you know, this is the vast majority of people are still sitting in the middle ground kind of looking around going what's going on, but you've got a very very strong Neo-Reformed movement happening and you've got a very very strong, what's the word, charismatic new almost overly emphasizing, you know, the the move of the Holy Spirit. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I think there's a very very very strong focus on it to the point of kind of ignoring a few other things. And so you've got these two extremes that are starting to really rear their head I think in the in the Pentecostal charismatic movement particularly in Australia at the moment and talking to a few people in America a few my colleagues, they would agree that it's starting to look like that there as well. So, you know, we are seeing movements and counter-movements even within our denomination or broader movement and people get caught up in it without even realizing I guess.

James: So would you say it's kind of one side valuing experience over knowledge much more than the other side?

U-Wen: Yes and no. There's definitely the experiential aspect on one and and on a very yeah on a superficial level. It does absolutely look like that but I think it's a little bit more than that. I think there's when you dig a little bit deeper into this kind of Neo-Reformed movement, there is an emphasis on the word for sure, but you know, the the experiential people would say they also have a similar emphasis stages of read it a little bit differently. I think and what it comes down to is preference and style really. Which it which is very very interesting because you know, I think both have their issues both are doing great things, you know, the Neo-Reformed people are trying to pull people back to biblical literacy, which I greatly admire but I think some of the theology, you know needs to be looked at a bit more carefully and we need to ask some questions about it. And at the same time, you know, the experiential people are pulling people, you know into a greater experience of the Holy Spirit, which is again, you know, wonderful we should we should always have more of that but you know, it needs to be balanced. What where we have problems. I think more recently is when one side starts pointing fingers at the other and you know, blaming them. I think Awakening would be a great example of that here in Australia. You know, they they tried to do this wonderful thing of getting all the churches together and and, you know celebrating unity in Jesus.

Wonderful, right? I don't know heaps about it. And I think it was a great idea what wasn't helpful was, you know, a few of the people who sat more on the Neo-Reformed side wrote a couple of Articles kind of critiquing it and going, “Oh, well, you know their theology sloppy and whatever.”

Okay, here's the thing you can poke holes in anyone's theology. It's not difficult to do. In fact, it's really easy. And if you're bored, it's really fun. Okay, but how helpful is that really and so people need to I think get off their High horses and try and realize that earlier today, you know, global numbers of Christians are actually shrinking apart in the west. So, you know instead of trying to fight each other civil war style. What we need is more I think the Avengers of you know, Pentecostal Christianity to get together get the team back together and kind of work things forward rather than trying to snipe at each other.

James: What do you think about the the culture of, I mean services like YouTube and Facebook and you know, I don't know several other internet services have really increased the number of videos and posts the being critical and you know going into depth about other people's Theology and obviously also Conspiracy Theory. What do you think about the rise of that in kind of our Western Christian Society?

U-Wen: Well, this is where it becomes it bleeds out of the West right and kind of starts flowing into into different parts of the world and because you know, Africa, for example African Pentecostal Christianity is one place that has really taken up the Prosperity Gospel. Right and and you know, for those of us who live in particular in Australia, I think we've kind of gotten over that a little bit and it's kind of a bit of a bit of a past fad that we a little bit embarrassed to talk about now, but you know in Africa because all these teachings are so easily accessible to them online and because everyone has access to the internet there, you know, they love it and they think they really get into it and it's it's really popular there to be able to show that you have some sort of connection to the West now, so it's a really weird. You know, it's almost like a Neo-colonization except using the internet. Let's let's come back to this question right resources being available to everyone. I think it's a wonderful thing. Everyone should be able to access all this stuff. Most people can and you know, the problem is kind of discerning the quality of stuff because as you said there's crackpot theories out there, you know, we've all been in the Wikipedia Wormhole. We've all been in the YouTube wormholes where you start, you know looking at one thing and suddenly you're talking about something completely different.

James: Suddenly I'm looking about how Hillsong runs the Illuminati...

U-Wen: Yeah. Yeah exactly, you know stuff like that or you know, how the one dollar bill is Illuminati symbols and all that kind of stuff, right? The problem is discernment and learning how to critically evaluate stuff. And this is where I think education is so so important and you know Christians need to continue educating themselves. It's fascinating right, one thing that frustrates me a lot is I see people who particularly Christians who are amazing… Let's say Business Leaders. Okay, they run small businesses or big businesses. They're really really sharp in what they do when it comes to their work, but then it comes to their faith and they turn their brains off and they don't apply the same sort of tactical critical analysis to what they're being told or what they're reading on the internet or what they're reading even in a book as they would do their business and and they become really gullible and that's how people fall into Cults, you know. And and not even cultures bad teaching. That's one thing that is very interesting to me is this reluctance that a lot of people have to apply critical thinking and the sort of evaluative judgments that you would apply to any other thing to church life, I guess or sermons or teaching or the books that you read even you know.

I remember I was going to buy a bicycle. I spent so much time on the internet like reading reviews and being like okay, I need to find the right bicycle that fits my budget and you know has got great reviews and whatever and you can do that nowadays. It's wonderful. But I wonder how many people will do that when it comes to a sermon like, I'm not saying that we should all get up and judge summons or books necessarily but what I'm saying is do you do the research and do you ask the right questions about someone's background training, you know, their stance, where they're coming from and all this stuff when you read something that they have to say and when you hear what they have to say because you would if it was a purchase for example, and I think you should when it comes to sermons as well or preaching or books, you know, Christian literature, shall we say.

James: What do you think the biggest reasons that lead to biblical illiteracy are?

U-Wen: There’s a few factors. One, is that the Bible is a very challenging document to read. Let’s be let's be straight up honest here. Everyone everyone I know is that is I did this right. You get saved or born again or whatever terminology you want to use and become a Christian. You get real excited. You pick up your Bible. You started reading Genesis you go “Oh my gosh. This is awesome.” And then you hit about Leviticus and you stopped. Right? Everyone does this. You get through Genesis. You think this is wonderful. Look at all these stories. Exodus is the same and then yeah, you hit the middle of the pentateuch and you just go (or the Torah) Yep. I'm done. And then you really discouraged and then you think I'm gonna give the New Testament a go. And you pick it up and you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John you think “Wow. I'm on fire again.” And then you read Acts and think “Wow, I can go and do all these things” and then you go on to the Epistles and then you start cherry-picking because you don't really know why they're there. Who were they written to? You know, what what's the context behind some of these sayings?

We don't talk a lot about it in church. Some of the more conscientious pastors will and I commend everyone who does that because, what it means is that you're reading stuff without context and you don't really know what's going on. And once you realize that or you you fall into a trap of pulling out stuff that suits you and applying it to your life and you know, we end up calling that proof-texting. Everyone's done it at some point in their lives because they haven't realized what the context is. You know, it would be like in 2000 years from now someone picking up, let’s say a manual for a CD player without actually having a CD player or knowing what CDs are or knowing how electricity works because you know, maybe in two thousand years will be beyond electricity and trying to use that. It's just inconceivable. So we do ourselves a disservice by not doing a little bit of research a little bit of digging and that feeds into our illiteracy because we quickly put into the ‘too hard’ basket. Another problem is that you know, we're very time poor these days and so to set aside the time to actually read the scriptures is difficult. One thing I always encourage people to do is to you know, I know that there's all these debates about translations and stuff like that. You know, I always say this to my students, “if you're gonna get hung up on a translation, you better go and dedicate two or three years of learning Greek because no translation is accurate.” Anyone who has grown up in another country can tell you that or if you've ever been to, you know on a missions trip or whatever, you know been to another country and heard your stuff being translated, you know that translations never capture the full spirit of what's going on.

So at the end of the day is the KJV the best? No, all translations are flawed, so read a translation that you can read and that is conducive to you. If I'm reading for fun, which rarely happens to be honest. But if I just want to just read the Bible and kind of let it soak I actually read The Message. I think Eugene Peterson did a wonderful job of conveying a lot of the spirit of what's going on. But let's be honest if I'm doing study, proper study, which for me, you know can be as a scholar, you know, we might be a little bit different but for me, I read the Greek or I might… my Hebrews terrible, but I try and look at the Hebrew and I read, you know commentaries on the Greek and on the Hebrew rather than reading whatever translation because at the end of the day all translations are flawed. So that's another factor which is that we're time poor and it's difficult. So the time for thing is something that I think people have sort out for themselves and prioritize, but the translation think is definitely a hump you can get over which is just read whatever works for you. If you want to get snobby about translations go and learn Greek or Hebrew.

James: Well, you heard it here first. Dr. U-Wen Low reads the message and endorses it. All right. Thanks. I think that could be a pretty controversial opinion in some circles.

U-Wen: Possibly. I read all. I read a few others. They’re are all important. Yeah, but yeah, go and read the Greek and Hebrew.

James: So what do you what do you think about the rise in books written by pastors? And they're not they're not always well, they're not exactly kind of commentaries on the Bible or or certain books of the Bible specifically. A lot of them are kind of...

U-Wen: How to make and save money.

James: Yeah kind of. A lot of them are kind of just general living sort of books. And I mean they seem to really big in Christian circles. What do you think about the rise of that in modern Christianity?

U-Wen: I have a divided opinion. On the one hand, I think, you know, if that stuff is helpful for you in your walk and your faith and you know by all means go for it on the other hand, there's nothing new under the sun. You know, it's all been said before like it really has and a lot of these pastors are just repackaging stuff that they've discovered in the Bible or in you know, like let's say the early church fathers or later Mystics or whatever. Repackaging it whether or not they’re consciously doing this is another matter, but I can guarantee you for a lot of the stuff that we talking about today If you go and dig a little bit into history, you'll find that people have written about it from a Christian perspective since forever. One interesting thing that I think is semi-related, and it's an interesting juxtaposition to me is that we're now in an age, you know nowadays in 2018-19 that doesn't really trust experts anymore for whatever reason and yet a lot of people still turn to people like pastors for advice on how to live your life for example. And I find that kind of interesting because we don't trust experts but will trust, you know, the guy at the pub or you know, the guy who goes to my Lifegroup or I read about it on, you know, Instagram or someone sent it to me on Whatsapp right? You know, all those urban myths and fake news and circulate on social media, you know, people trust that stuff nowadays over experts and it's a fascinating phenomenon because what it means as someone who has spent a bit of time working towards expertise, it's a little bit frustrating to be honest. Because you kind of go, “guys like I've spent a good chunk of time researching this” and not researching in the sense that I read it every day. It's I've read you know, hundreds of thousands of what other people have to say about this and so I've you know, I've done the historical research, I've gone digging at this site, or I've you know read this is the stuff in Greek or I’ve looked at the Papyrus or whatever and I do actually have a good idea about what I'm talking about. So, you know, it can be frustrating as an expert to see people who are not experts in the field to get up and and talk about, you know, particular things. But at the same time like I say, you know anything that encourages people to do a bit more digging for themselves is not a bad thing. Where it's dangerous is where we start following one person ‘religiously’.

One problem I have with Australian, Oh, I think we've kind of started to get a little bit over it but Australian Pentecostalism, you know when I was a little bit younger so, you know, maybe ten years ago. We had a really big problem with idolatry and not in the sense that people going out and finding Buddha statues and worshiping it but we were elevating leaders and people to a status that was just not realistic or feasible, right? And I think we've gotten over that by now because we've started to realize that people are people and people aren’t perfect. The Royal commission certainly has helped with that. So yeah, so that's been a very very interesting thing that you know, like no one's perfect. And we really shouldn't be idolizing people, you know over I guess genuine good teaching or good principles. People aren't perfect at the end of the day. So, you know what to kind of bring this slight ramble back together. Nothing wrong with reading self-help books particularly, if you know that, you know, you kind of getting a trustworthy source. What I recommend actually is if you're going to read one self-help book, go and read five or six. Critically think through them, evaluate them, and you know pick the one that works best for you. Because all these people are writing out of their own experiences and their own contexts and yours might be completely different to theirs. I mean, you know, I wish I was a wealthy, you know American who lived in a predominantly monocultural place, you know who could do that, but I'm not. So, you know, like his advice might be completely, you know irrelevant to me because that's just not the place I live in. So think through things, I think is what my refrain will always be. Be careful, be critical, think through what you're being told.

James: Do you feel like Christians maybe aren't thinking through things, especially when it comes to political matters because it's sometimes, to me at least, it feels sometimes feel like a lot again, not all, but a lot of Christians kind of fall into a bit of a tribalism when it comes to political matters, you know, they will be something or you know, they've always known a certain person or a certain party to be the Christian party so I just have to follow them no matter what support them no matter what. Now, obviously that probably leans more to maybe the American evangelicalism sort of kind of spectrum, but I do I still see it in Australia.

U-Wen: It’s infiltrated Australia a fair bit and it's interesting right? Because this is where as a Biblical scholar and a teacher what I tell my students is don't actually listen, well actually, do listen to your pastors, but you know kind of done listen to the party line. Why don't you actually read your Bible and see what Jesus has to say about these matters or what the Bible has to say about these matters because to be honest, let's say something like ecology, right and the preservation of the earth. A lot of people are saying “okay, you know global warming is a hoax and climate change is a hoax that we don't care. We should keep burning coal.”

Okay. Well that's fine. You know, you're entitled to think that but the Bible does at the end of the day say that we are the custodians that we are the caretakers. If you read Revelation and you take it seriously, it says that at the end of time God comes down to earth and dwells among his creation. If I knew God was coming to my house I would probably tidy up a little bit, right?

Like the queen visiting your house you kind of want to give a good impression. Why don't we take that seriously and kind of you know tidy up the world a little bit, you know try and you know help the world a long rather than just keep polluting it and you know, and I know that there's a big segment of the population who might disagree with me and that's totally fine. But you know when I read the Bible, that's what I see. You know, that that's in there. The real problem however, is that… well there's two problems. One is that political parties hijack our agendas or claim to be representing us when they're really not.

I don't want to, you know, go into too much depth of detail there but a lot of parties claim to be representing Christian interests and will put the title Christian or Christianity prominently in their name. And it’s like “well actually, are they really?” because like I said, you know, the Christian interest can't really be defined by any one person or one party. It's you know, it's much more than that. It's a communities is reading of the text and the communities interpretation and understanding of the text together rather than one person saying “well now we're against this therefore all Christians are.”

So that's one problem. Another problem is of course that no one party will ever represent a genuine Christian interest because all Christian interests are different because we're all different because we all come from different contexts in different places and it means that really at the end of the day when it comes to things like voting that's why no paster will/should get up and tell you to vote for because you should vote for the person who you think you know the whose policies whose ideas whose ideals line up with what your interpretation of the christian message is.

So, you know for you that might look like the Australian liberals for someone else, it might look like like the Nationals and don't forget every Member of Parliament is different. Every Senator is different. They all have slightly different, you know approaches and things like that as well. So it really comes down to you know, think things through right be critical, you know, do your research and ask the important questions. Don't just blindly follow a particular party because that doesn't always end. Well, you know the people who… To bring it back to the Bible, the people who crucified Jesus were following the religious party of the time and they thought they were doing the right thing and you know what they actually were within one interpretation of the scripture.

Now we look back. We've got the benefit of two thousand years of hindside and we say, “oh, well, they were clearly wrong.”

But they were still fervent followers. They were still doing what they thought God was calling them to do. They were trying to preserve their religion and their faith and they end up crucifying, you know, Jesus the Messiah and you know, I find that very sad and very ironic but there's a lesson there for us as well in that we can get too caught up in our own denominational or church agenda and kind of miss the forest for the trees sometimes.

James: What do you think is some good resources for Christians?

U-Wen: Oh, that's a really really good question. You know, I recommend that all Christian go to Bible College. You know, we're getting to that point. I think every Christian needs to have some sort of Education in their faith because well, most of us don't really know how to teach it anymore. Like you know, like if I had kids that say I would barely know where to start, you know with teaching them about what it means to be a Christian and a lot of us really, let's be honest have no idea what that looks like. And so we try and get the Church to do it. Right? We like go to Kids Church. They'll teach you about the Bible and people in Kids Church, why would they have any more idea than you do?

We all try our best obviously, even youth right? You've been a youth leader. I've been a youth leader. We are not necessarily there to teach young people about the Bible, we’re there because we are passionate about young people growing in their faith, and we want to help them along and avoid the mistakes we did, but we're not really there to teach the Bible. So, you know, yeah don't don't just rely on your church is one thing I'm trying to say I think take responsibility for it yourself. Read widely. I think it's the best advice I can give anyone and when I say read widely, I don't just mean read 10 books, I mean read ten different books. Read books that disagree with your point of view because when you do that, yeah, you might hate it and that's totally fine.

But it will actually force you to think about what you believe in and why. And when you can do that, when you can articulate that, I think then you're in a much much stronger position and able to defend your faith. You know, there's a whole spectrum of Christianity that will disagree on everything, you know, all the things we've talked about today. I can name you Christians who would completely disagree with me and that's fine. Don't just write them off but have a listen to what they have to say and you know kind of think it through for yourself. Again, it comes down to context and stuff. What I will say is, avoid hopping onto Google typing in whatever topic and just looking at the first two results, you know. That's not helpful. We all know that search, you know, internet search engines and stuff have different algorithms for determining popularity. So what pops up is not always the best stuff. It's the stuff that more people have looked at all that, or you know have figured out ways to get themselves up there. So, you know, if you're not sure talk to talk to your pastors could you know talk to your local Bible College. Even if you don't want to study with them, they'll always be happy to point you in the direction of some good resources. I know almost every lecturer I know in any Bible college would be happy to entertain, you know, having a chat with you or an email and say hey, you know, what do you think about this… Let me give you some things to read. So yeah, you know, I don't want to be that the guy who's like “read these five books.”

I'd rather say well actually look around you and you know realize that you've got experts all around you, you know and try and utilize them because they probably might feel a little bit under utilized at the moment. Hopefully, hopefully that's a that makes sense. James: Well, maybe we'll be able to get Koorong on as a sponsor and just lead them to that store. Well Dr. U-Wen Low, I’ve loved having you here and you're an incredibly smart person and I can't wait to have you back for a future episode where we will talk about Revelation. We will go into depth and sure maybe bore people but it will be invigorating and interesting and I've loved having you here today.

U-Wen: Thank you. Make sure you bring a trumpet for that one.

James: Yeah, I will I will all right. Well, thank you so much.